The very saying that ther r two great epics Ramayana and Mahabharata is enough to alight a rational man thinking that they are mere epics, mythological characters - about how ideal behaviour a Great man shud
possess.
Agreed here, these works are model works of social perfection. They are our cultural identity, which is good.
If God exists start disowning him, how can he allow all kind of differences betn the very people he has created or given birth to. Tht is as if saying a mother differentiates between her sons. Will our boasted Indian culture accept this?? A mother treating her sons unequally and with affection for one and hatred for other.
If he exists, I don't think that would be a great idea - *IF* he exists. Because then, other things mentioned in literature may be considered too. That is if the pluralistic Hindu system of divinity exists - we are polytheistic, let's not assume monotheism just because it's convenient.
As far as our culture goes, any culture that promotes respect of elders, humility and vegetarianism must be tolerated! We don't have a complete evil, we don't have concepts that 'animals are made for eating'. And we don't have concepts that religious genocide is acceptable.
For me, this is a highly evolved human culture - all Indians should be proud of this fact that our forefathers were far more evolved and educated than the rest of the world.
Every1 knows Ramayana was written by Valmiki, tht in itself proves Ram never existed in flesh n soul. R u saying a person, a thief, had for years observed a person Rama & all characters thruout their lives, and then went on to pen it all after giving up his bad deeds.
But what about his territory? It's funny you should say this because there are places of historical references. Take Rameshwaram temple for instance, the story written in the north, and you find a temple in the south with the same name and reference? The north has *never* invaded or even occupied the south.
The West has proven the existence of mythological Jesus because of actual historical references mentioned in their mythological storybook, the bible. But on our end, do you actually think that they actually even invest as much into such expeditions? I am still waiting for something in Gujarat where they supposedly found Krishna's Dwarka - the museum plan is already 10s of years late.
With this form of practice, do you think that evidence, even if it is found, would ever surface? No.
So my point is that the accounts may not be all wrong, may even be a genuine biography - albeit an exaggerated one. The Nepalis used to call their Kings avatar of Vishnu as well - you get the link?
Then again, an invincible bowman with access to a nuclear weapon, that is the brahmastra, is some claim.
Same is wid Lord Ganesha, trace history and its not even 100 years old custom. BalGangadhar Tilak started it just to associate in name of religion so as to avoid British rulers from stopping them to assemble.
Having an Elephant's head etc is unrealistic as Neil quoted.
It is not entirely unrealistic, though in terms of I am closer to your conclusion. It is possible that when single cell organisms evolve, they make have single parents. It may just be possible that there is a combination of man + elephant cell combination. We are nothing more than a walking bag of water! Evolved from single cell organism to this complex collection of millions and millions of cells.
If you had enquired if chimps were close relatives of human beings years ago, you'd have scoffed the idea. So my hypothesis to that is that it is still possible - albeit one within the range of scientific possibilities - all you know is that such things might have died due to competition! They are mammals anyway. That is within a scientific perspective. Besides, historically, there are accounts of a miniature version of a pygmy elephant.
Moreover how can the 34 Crore Hindu Gods stand mute when all kinds of things r being done in front of their vigilant eyes. On an average its one GOD for two people. (In India Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Parsis), are other religions if one remembers. The thing is in India its very common to make Gods. C all these Baba Logs today, surrounded by Women,running ashrams, politics r they all saint, not one of them.
There are no 340 million Gods in Hinduism - this figure is quoted by some uneducated angrez with no damn formal education at all about our culture. If there are 340 million 'gods' you should ask for evidence. Where did he refer this figure from? Where do such retards get these figures? These are the same people who claim that Christianity is monotheistic despite have the 3 + 1 concept of the 'father son holyspirit' nonsense. Full of contradictory concepts.
On the basis of pluralistic divinity - I should point out that hindus believe in divine hierarchies - that said Indra and the demi gods have 'Gods' too. In this case, according to purans and the vedas, you can divide the concept into four categories - the Vaishnavs who believe in the concept of Vishnu being the Godhead, the Shavites who believe that Shiva is the Godhead and Shakti worshipers who believe in the female Godhead. IN that sense, "hinduism" does not exist just as Christianity, Judaism and Catholicism are consider separate.
Onto the sadhus and other godmen - it's merely a concept that is also applied in the west! Where does a Pope fit into the picture? Is that right? On another note, this is a concept that is completely wrong in our culture - that a sadhu can be God or something. There is little evidence of divinity - and you look for the divine in another human being - complete nonsense.
But every culture has its flaws.
But thing is that we want to turn blind eye to all this. Coz its a matter of faith. Tell me how many here had really choosen their own religion or studied any religion. We hav merely accepted it coz our parents practice the same. No questions asked, as its a matter of faith. And tht is how our beliefs r nurtured thrupout our life.
We can always have debates over issues, and it is not wrong. But what I find wrong is that you condemn things that you have no idea of. This is especially prevalent in the West. You should only comment or enter a debate about concepts that you have complete understanding of, I have countless of times verbally bashed angrezis and even western desi wannabes who go on with their misinformed concepts without engaging in any form of formal study of it all. This is clearly expressing disrespect for us collectively.
These are the basics of our culture, you don't have to believe in them but at least get concepts right - you should not quote figures and facts raised by the angrez who quite frankly can't even sit right on their own toilet seat.
There hardly any practical thought or scientific reasoning involved. So when even we know something utterly false, we dont deny it, if it is said by the Saint or questions our religion, customs and traditions.
But the idea isn't science in the East - we have sufficient understanding of the real and the surreal - our philosophy is by far the most accomplished, and superior to the west. And you did start off this post as such too - that the idea is more exemplary and not literally, if you don't have 'faith'.
Do u all accept everything else said by parents with same zeal. Never, but when it comes to religion, just follow it.
I do, but at my house there is a culture of rigourous discussion. It's an open environment where I am taught to hold a firm conviction over my cultural identity - question where necessary but also make sure that I respect and reflect my identity where in question.
Now sure Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammed were born n existed. THeir disciples made them Gods and not a super creation n super power as thought elsewhere in Hinduism.
No Jesus, he existed as much as Ram existing - but you seem to be convinced of his existence. That's research for you - the west has sufficiently spent on expeditions while our people aren't bothered - we wait for the west to come over with money for such research instead.
It's obvious that our youth will eventually come to this conclusion!
Who has really championed the cause of Women? For Generations our ancestors didnt allow them to move out of kitchen. It was same ridiculous Talibanism here. Washing feet of husband n drinking water, Sati, child marriage all kinds of derogatory things. To top it all the same culture has Glorified "Maa" or motherhood, and how does any son accept his mother been treated so unfairly.
Yes, and the same culture is the first major culture in the world to worship a female divinity and was very much comfortable with female sexuality. Do you know how tantric form of religion came to be, and how old it actually is?
The washing of feet concept is the same as doing so with your parents - I have done it and will still do it. So it's up to their individual choices. What is suggested in the shastras are a vague form of guidance.
For the information, hinduism has a clear concept - every man's dharm is his own domain. If you think you wish to be the ideal mythological indian wife, go wash the feet of your elders and husband, who is older than you anyways. If you hubby is sensible enough, he will ask you to cease the practice. If not, don't do so - it's your dharm and thus your karm, it's your choice.
But don't confuse guidance to protocols friend - please take note that what is suggested and what is practiced are completely different concepts. It's not derogatory to demonstrate respect, every culture has it's norms.
Like the Muslims kissing the hands of their elders, yes kisses on the hands. The Jews on the cheeks etc. Get the concept of dharm and karm straight. Satism isn't a 'hindu' concept. It was a much modern concept where a woman, at a time when the Khshatriyas could fight anytime and anywhere, where murder, plundering were common, had a choice initially to die off with their hubbies. And many did this.
It obviously wrong and looks worse in the current time, but in those times, this was 'normal'. It isn't like Christianity condemns human sacrifices. Crusades have seen suspected 'witches' burnt alive too, why don't you also mention the Spanish Inquisition? What about Jesus Christ? Every bread you eat in his name is his flesh, and the wine you drink is his blood because he is the 'lamb' of "God". Muslims slaughter animals for their own religion. This form of trend is normal in cross-cultural evolution, the only thing I find disturbing in your post is that you did not sufficiently demonstrate understanding the collective trend and the times in which this was practiced. There is a difference, and it's all the same everywhere.
Yes, it was wrong - but this is a part of cultural evolution - it's the same everywhere, we made mistakes, grew out of it and reached maturity today. And besides, it's not as if satism was a common affair, most of the times, it was the monarchs who wanted to set the example of chastity. It was more of an uncommon affair. Satism was an *uncommon* practice, not common.
Who brought relief, who opened the First Girls School, do u all remember, Mahatma Jyotirao Phule and Savitribai Phule. No. Coz they were human, and not turned into Gods. Why again coz of religious hatred tht is nurtured by our forefatehers. We were all thought in schools this, their hardships, our forefathers throwing shit on them as they broke the ridiculous customs. Yet how many show respect for them, let alone worship them. Surely not a single one here, not even the very Girls or women who r as liberal and free today.. Walk across Mumbai n major cities n one sees how independent these girls hav becom. But do they all know who is their real messaih, mascot. Had it been for their very own fathers n ancestors, these women wud still be cooking n washing clothes n nothing more.
And c where women r today. U boast of Indra Nooyi, Kalpana Chawla, but who opened the doors closed for centuries for them. U turn blind eye.
Nonsense. You fail to mention so many women in history as well. What about the Queen of Jhansi? Indira Gandhi? I don't support complete liberalism but am open to the idea of the rights of man/women. The very sight of Shiva/Shakti in some half form tells me what our forefathers thought about and how they wanted society to exist. You need resources to make it on top, if the women did not have resources, do you want differential treatment? That's not a trait of a balanced society, why the specialized treatment? Things have also just recently opened up in the west, truly secular societies.
It's common in America that even today, women are paid less for the same work than men, what's your comment on that? That Jefferson, Paine and their contemporaries failed? No they haven't it's all a part of evolution.
Imagine you hav 2 sons, One is given education, schooling n all, second child was stopped from seeking education, just for 10 or 20 years and then after that opened doors, given free education n all, will the second acquire same skills as the first in couple of years. Yes or No
So now, wouldn't this be more of a social problem? If your family has just 100,000 to spend on a degree and you have an opportunity cost at hand, you have to make the best possible choice!
You are making it seem as though they really want to not send the other despite having the resources. Poverty and limited resources also play a part in India today. It's not like they have a free choice here.
Our parents cant match our cellphone or computer skills in just one generation gap. And u xpect ppl illtreated for generation n centuries, who were barred, stopped from basic schooling n education to come up in 50 years. When to look over it ther r the very ppl who created all this differences. Now, will there b fair judgement ever?
Yes, it's called evolution. The baby boomers faced the same problem in the industrial age. This is what they call the survival of the fittest - you need to constantly learn and upgrade your skills. For someone for science, you should know this fact that if a living organism stops being competitive it may face extinction! Yes, eventually we may just see this trend - less farmers and more executives and we will start running out of food, when we will start automation - it's so predictable, our trait.
In fact, you have not even considered the fact that we have evolved from an ape to this near-hairless creature. This is what we call evolution. As brutal as it may seem, but it needs to occur - that's the system.
Then u say how unpriviledged we r, stories of ant n grasshopper circulate.
Not really, if there is a will, there is a way.
That is our basic corrupt society n mind. We know but wont accept it as it hurts our pride. In a nutshell all this Vedas, Puranas r scrap, coz they teach differences, hatred. Why it was done?
Again, have you read any of them? I take an exception of you making such an statement. Rig Ved is about the river saraswati (which existed in the north btw, they found the underground basin in India, not Russia as previously thought - the 'Arya' concept is merely a term, women used to call their own husbands that) and hymns about the drinks of Indra and his halls etc. Yajur Ved is about medicine, which at that time was an important medical document. Sam Ved is about music and Atharva Ved is about mystical arts and sacrifices. Purans are extensions surrounding mythical stories that help mould social behaviour with stories about demi gods and their lives.
This is a disturbing statement, which I find very very offensive. Any Indian with any form of respect for his culture and identity should condemn this. And what is invigourating is that you hardly know anything mentioned in there.
India always has had a opened door policy, All kind of rulers hav invaded this country. and it was a Golden state centuries ago, sone ki chidiya. The times of Lord Buddha.
Buddha is not a 'lord'. He is merely Sakya Munni who plagiarized hindu concepts - its a historical fact that Siddharth has plagiarized hindu concepts. On his death bed, he advises his students that his way is not a religion, but it is hijacked and sold as one anyway.
And today, we have buddhists condemning the "scrappy" ved and purans despite using these documents to create their own sutras and even plagiarize our demi gods...
I don't buy that buddhist ploy really, what the buddhists have done with Hinduism is exactly what the Christians have done with Judaism. Steal first and prosecute later. If today, I write a thesis and steal ideas from another article, I will get penalized. What about such blatant plagiarism? Fantasy or not, this is not scholarly behaviour.
Then Some people who had no homes, were always wondering Aryans came here, they were thrown out of their own land, Here since they were in less no.s or handful, now how to merge with Indians The fear of being in minority or in less no.s So They saw the innocent minds here, and started creating all sorts of stories, vedas, gods scripts basically dividing lines only to become a Ruler here, kept ppl of this country engaged in chanting Gods name n not apply their own minds.
Utter nonsense. The 'invasion' is a fairytale. It's even well known in Australia that it was a conformation attempt by the Germans to explain their superiority. There are no historical facts because modern evolution theories about migration counter such claims.
Please conduct a little research - historians are already challenging 'invasion' theorists.
THey made ppl believe God will decide ur fate, n created as many ladders so that no one ever comes up and question their authority.
They will, because even in there, all it takes is one possibility of a revolt in a million and you are staring at a revolution that you cannot do anything about! Imagine a jihadi strapping himself with a bomb, isn't that the concept of a personal God? I don't see you condemning that.
So a Khstriya remains Kshtriya, Vaishya remains Vaishya, Shudra a Shudra, nonsense, one is born from belly, other from feet, one from mouth, one from forehead of Lord or Brahma. Incapabilities of God himself. He cant produce all equally.
Because of limited resources - for your information, in modern anthropology, it is a proven fact that human beings will *ALWAYS* have a hierarchy. And with that in mind, if you have actually studied in your management course, you may have learnt that there is a *CLASS STRUCTURE* that is even present today - and measurement is done in view to your wealth. High-High, High, High-Mid, Mid-Mid, Low-Mid, Low, Low-Low.
So your suggestion is rather unreasonable. You seem to have been jumping from one pole to the next, as you deemed fit. You discuss divinity, then hop on to sociology with women's rights on which we may have a pretty Ok record and then to anthropology.
The caste system was a model social achievement in the history of man - where social leaders found a way to create an efficient society. Even in modern management, you practice efficiency in production where work is divided, this is the same concept - I am disappointed that as an Indian and a management student you have not been able to understand this simple concept!
Yes, abuse exists, but with the human element, you will always have errors to deal with.
Will u accept this today, i.e no matter how u work hard or talented u r, you will be in the same position as u hav joined, no promotions and no authority to question,
Unlike your current situation, considering Maslow's law, a human being will not look for personal development if he doesn't feel secure - if you consider this fact than at those times where resources were limited and hardly available, they may not even have such ideas anyways. Besides, in their own communities, irregardless of castes, they could attain leadership positions anyways.
If you like things now, I'd love to see if you can become the President tomorrow. If you cannot, why are things better today? There is a class system, there are social restrictions and you have your limitations?
You are condemning for the sake of condemning and I didn't find this any more constructive and anything I've heard from a desi.
Think scientifically n rationally, I know not one here is going to change his stand but least be truthful to yourself. Dont go by Indian herd mentality.
Neel Jani
My advise would be doing more reading and after that, constructively debating.
